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jamming with video
MattisManzel:
Some folks are jamming with video
MattisManzel:
The Blues-music-wiki http://bluesmusicwiki.net/index.php/Blues/HomePage
MattisManzel:
from second life, community: music
I’m a musician. How do I perform in Second Life?
Playing a show in Second Life is done by sending a live music stream from your own computer to a Shoutcast (http://www.shoutcast.com) or Icecast (http://www.icecast.org) server, and mapping the server’s stream URL to a parcel of land in Second Life. People who visit the parcel in Second Life will immediately hear the live music stream. Musicians are also typically logged into Second Life at the same time as they are performing, so they can chat with the audience between songs and even take requests! There are also many Residents in Second Life who run clubs and venues specifically to host and feature live musicians, so you don’t necessarily have to own your own parcel of land to get started. When you are in Second Life, try joining and talking with people in the “Live Music Enthusiasts” Group to find venue opportunities.
MattisManzel:
Sheet music to midi. Not that hot for world-jam but interesting. http://oink.sheep.art.pl/Music_Wiki
We talked about some music-related stuff on CollabEditor:Archive_2007-08-05_Ting
Mattis, hi. I sent you an email or two to your yahoo.de address, but never heard back. Did you get anything from me? --Bill Croft, croft AT lightfield DOT com
Here is the email text:
Mattis, hi.
I found your wiki and postings on the Skype boards regarding long distance improvisation. Since I’m a vocalist the MIDI idea is not really possible and the other approach (“one-measure” delays) also is problematic.
I take it that you have kind of given up on Skype because of the latency.
What about a very simple telephone headset idea with in-country phone lines? Isnt that the best in terms of latency? Of course bandwidth sucks, but 4 or 5 KHz is better than nothing. Have you tried the telephone idea, perhaps with conference line services? Or in the U.S. here, you can setup impromptu conference chain calls with no difficulty or expense.
Other musicians have written about Apple’s iChat, I could forward you those links. I’m a Linux guy myself. But use Windows too. Wish I had a Mac, I was a Mac developer in a prior lifetime.
--Bill
MattisManzel:
Hihi, just wrote you this mail after not having checked my mail for some days.
moin Bill,
Nice you wrote. Hasn’t been going on much around world-jam-wiki, true. I’m completely into developing the wiki-net and care for a couple of dozens wikis - still I’d like very much to pick up on the idea. Music remains the most easy to translate language and is the only one indeed global.
SamRose, a bright guy on community-wiki, a musician as well, showed interest in the world-jam-wiki a while ago, he mentioned midi - so I added midi. It would be possible. The original idea was sheer voip.
Midi makes me shiver, remembering the 80ies, entering our guitar-player’s room and he goes: “Don’t turn on the light! I’m just saving!” C64 times. And the computer crashes on stage, lovely!
We made one session on skype that was really cool. We played pretty free from the beginning, the latency semt not too disturbing to me. I didn’t ever get ninjam running on linux, evite windows and was too busy with the wiki-net to get back into music recently. I get a kick from the idea of an internet radio streamed online jam session under a CC license. There must be more musician-geeks around who would like to drive this idea forewards.
Id actually very much like to use the talk on the wiki instead of email.
As a former mac developer you probably know someone who can help on a problem I think is urgent. You probably heard of subEthaEdit, a mac app, it was the first collab-editor. Collab-editors are like the software we are looking for on world-jam-wiki but for text. Realtime. You login from wherever in the world and there are as many cursors on the document as participants. Everybody can write whereever and has a different background color when typing, so you can tell who wrote what. There is a wonderful open source cross-platform collab-editor now called gobby. The serious drawback is that the mac installation is kind of a horror-trip, 800 MB download and you need 3 Gib of free disk space. To skrink, simplyfy and propperly explain it would help a lot.
The idea to use ordinary telephone is brilliant btw. But it gets exensive when jamming transcontinental and I’m not sure about the letancy then. No, I didn’t try that yet.
Anyhow. I leave you alone now.
Thanks again and greetz from Italy.
MattisManzel:
The overloaded bars on to and to the right were collapsed into special, the huge CamelCase page-title are now small in the very upper left corner. How do you like it?
You can’t save single line contributions. Add a blanc and a second line.
you can’t save
hello.
you can save
hello
.
It’s against spam, it is no bug. Write two lines, that’s it.
MattisManzel:
Didn’t feel like doing certain things but instead brushed up da world-jam.wiki. 
MattisManzel:
Sam, I’ll adapt the wold-jam-wiki to the latest wiki-net-style soon. Just returned to Berlin, gotta couple of things to do, gimme some days.
MattisManzel:
Posted on forum.skype.com: performing music over the internet with another musician. Maybe somebody come over here testing. Use the sand-box, please.
Let me ask a question to you. You know about any other fora about playing music together via the internet? Leave a link then please and thanks. Just paste the link beginning with “http://”, save, and it turns a link automatically (wiki).
MattisManzel:
It urgently needs blikification here. … Done. Image for the banner is from here.
MattisManzel:
Yeah! Ninjam - Novel Interval-based Network Jamming Architecture for Musicians
The idea is getting more concrete - community-wiki: wiki-Woodstock . We have an opensource collab-editor now as a main column to build it: Gobby. Let’s get rolling!
Kus:
Maybe you have heard of http://www.netstockfest.net - The new hippies which was the first time in 2005. They have a lot knowhow.
MattisManzel:
Yes! thanks a lot, Kus. You get a case of beer for that! netstockfest.net: wiki-Woodstock
MarKusKoller?:
Send the case of beer here, contacted EmanueleErrante? from netstockfest.net, he will get in touch with you.
MattisManzel:
wiki-Woodstock is coming up. 10th to 12th of June 2005. Seems we have to revive the world-jam idea. A streamed session 24 hours a day for the whole three days, right? 
Details on eArt-wiki-hive / wiki-Woodstock: wiki-Woodstock-world-jam.
Here’s a great new program for capturing live audio. It records anything that goes through your sound card:
http://www.guitarforbeginners.com/MY/FreeRecorder.zip
--KC
MattisManzel:
A must is moon-edit. http://me.sphere.pl/indexen.htm. Not directly musicially, but increddible collaborative - kinda text-jam-session - and even has a rudimentary sequencer integrated. Check sphere.pl (the most active of few server up to now) and look for a document you are not alone on, a bit patience. This is supernewsuperhot. cu on moonedit.
Yes, the “test” went well, KC, once everyone was connected. Three of us performed for 20 minutes on a variety of intruments (harmonica, djembe, guitar, kazoo to name a few) and the delay became a part of the performance rather than a hindrance. I recorded it on an external device and the balance of instruments and quality is amazingly good. Yes, available in .mp3 format for anyone that wants a copy though I hasten to add I think this is a medium for performance rather than listening!
We didn’t have a problem with the cut-out KC referred to but in an attempt to reduce echo on Skype some users are set up for the incoming signal to cut out when they start playing/talking. There’s a lot of info on Skype’s forum on how to turn this feature on or off but you have to go into config files and stuff like that! Fortunaltey we didn’t have a problem but headphones were required. DaveGuitar? (Can someone explain how I make this wiki page automatically insert my name??)
MattisManzel:
Hi. There’s a new cool thing called SideBar on the wiki. Everybody can edit it. A nice little logo would be cool - for the fun of it.
This Iguess is hot. http://openpodcast.org/
Hi guys--So how did the test go? And how did you capture it for an .mp3? And Dave, you were saying that when you were doing your recording experiment, if you do something as soon as you start playing you can’t hear the other person. I didn’t quite follow that. What did you mean? And when you could hear each other, did the echo throw you off?
KC
MattisManzel :
Imagine: Session archives, people listen to them - hey the seconds 30:04 til 39:21 were really cool, let’s pick up on that. Clickclac you make it listened to by other jammers and a moment later you develop the thing in a further session.
JeffSturges:
Our first test today! More to come soon …
MattisManzel:
which was cool, even recording with an *.mp3 file afterwards works. SessionArchive? could link to the *.mp3s of ‘em.
JeffSturges:
I’m wondering if we might be able to connect with some other folks from farther around the world (Asia, Middle East, South America, Australia etc.). I’m going to start randomly Skyping people in those areas to probe for more musicians and refer them to our wiki. Seems rather annoying and inefficient, like door-to-door sales, but then again, that’s how I’ve met a lot of people on Skype…from them calling me randomly. Maybe I’ll also post another forum entry on the Skype site. Any ideas on how to connect with other folks outside of the Western world?
Also, Mattis, if you get a chance, could you perhaps juggle the text around a bit and note the movements so that we might see an example of how to organize posts? To me, it seems that we should be putting the answers to questions right underneath them, and posting new information as you say, from least to most recent. But then again, whatever works for everyone works for me. Since most of us are new to wikis, I’d like to see the proper “protocol”.
KC:
Pretty simple really. I recorded my remote Skype guitarist (who we shall call Kevin) by taking his signal from the line-out of the sound card into channel 1 of a recording device and my signal was fed directly into channel 2 and a monitor output provided the signal that was sent via the sound card line-input and Skyped out to Kevin. Switch on tape recorder and channels 1 and 2 get recorded separately. We can hear each other because we didn’t suppress echos. If you do as soon as you start playing you can’t hear the other person. Wearing headphones helps but with the speakers on the echo sounds pretty good anyway! – sign
In case you were wondering, no I haven’t managed to record us separately on the PC yet.
Who fancies a global Skype jam, any sound making devices, max five people to test it out (as Jeff suggests below). Perhaps put your availability below. Put down GMT times if poss bearing in mind time differences?? And your Skype address if I don’t know it….
AVAILABILITY FOR JAM TESTING
Jeff: after Dec 13th, almost anytime, day or night ::JeffSturges
Dave: weekends best, and some evenings 1700hrs GMT to 2300hrs – sign
MattisManzel:
Great, push it forwards. I’m most delighted that you use the wiki. I recommend adding new stuff at the end of the date entry. Finishing with – YourNamepage?. Then you see who wrote what. Going on in a continuing disscussion needs no new date entry. It saves us a lot of scrolling and on the end we can put archive pages when the page gets too long. Looks like Alex is going to care for oddwiki and we will get a lot of new features activated for this wiki. Would you like avatars like we have them on http://www.emacswiki.org/cw/DenotingAuthor ? Timestamp hovering over the pic.
JeffSturges:
Here’s some possibly useful links…the ideas are similar, though the methods and execution are a bit different. Share is a weekly party at a club in New York City were everyone gets together and jams via electronic instruments. However, I believe they have done some live, multi-participant offsite jams as well. OpenSoundControl is a link off of the Share site that lists some useful software programs and also links to artists that have been experimenting with similar ideas… Enjoy!
Hey Dave, I’ve done a 5 participant conference with Skype. Actually, I’m doing one right now at my school in 5 different departments, to see if people will begin to interact with one another with a sort of ambient sound feed. I leave it on all day…It doesn’t seem to be a problem, and all the computers can handle it (most are 500-850 MHz w/ 128-256 RAM) however, I am having difficulty with feedback and the echo stopper function that you described. I am using pretty chinzy computer speakers and computer mics though…but usually everyone can speak at once. I will be out of town until next Mon, Dec 13th, but perhaps we could coordinate a “sloppy test” sometime then? Maybe just to get an idea if we can play with 5 people, judge the delay, check the sound, test mics, headphones, speakers, etc.?
MattisManzel:
Who should feel like making a homepage: RealName is welcome but [[KC?]] or [[daveguitar?]] just as well, sure.
daveguitar:
The Skype forum has explanation of how to prevent the other person cutting out when you talk or play. It defaults to this setting in order to prevent echo (echo echo echo) bouncing around… that’s how I understand it. I have managed full duplex, in fact I managed to record two guitarists playing Stairway To Heaven (sorry!) into two separate tracks of tape recorder and mixed it afterwards, no problem except obviously slight delay.
ALSO
A simple method for testing delays, e.g. over skype, is for one person to count in (like a band) 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, and then both to start reciting the alphabet at the same tempo. You’ll hear the delay easily. If one person is on the letter E and the other is still on B or C you’ve got serious problems. Tried this with Jeff last night - suprisingly good: I was on C and he was on C (minus about 20%!)
AND FINALLY…
Has anyone tried conference calls on skype? Up to 5 people i think can be involved. What are the limitations? Can people at skype increase the number?
JeffSturges:
Hey KC, glad you dropped by and thanks for your input. I’m also wondering if we were all able to sync up somehow individually via atomic or internet time server clock (sort of like a digital metronome), and then play based on that common “metronome.” WIth the proper software, our sounds could then be input to a analog to digital converter, inserted into a digital time schedule relative to that common “metronome,” and trasmitted to each remote musician. Anyone catching my drift?? I realize that it sounds very MIDI and not so warm and romantic. I’m not very technical, so much of this is theoretical stechspeak. Any other ideas? BTW, if anyone knows of any other folks that might be interested, technical or musical or both, their input would be quite valuable. Please feel free to spread this wiki around…
KC:
Even if you solve the delay problem, there still is the full duplex issue. On all these systems, the person on the other end only comes through intermittently, if at all, while I’m playing. Maybe it’s my lousy sound chip– AC97. Supposedly, it is full duplex. I would shell out for a decent sound card if I knew it would make a difference.
MattisManzel:
Your empathy is overwhelming, thx. The synch by internet clock is a new idea. What about having an LED flash everybody? A metrone-click would mess it all. Then you play ahead of what you hear. I wonder what happened whaen trying it out. Maybe the metroneme flash wouldn’t be but a help for the beginning and one could get used to the new “acoustic” situation. Must be like jamming from the two ends of a 500 meter long hall but without the echo. Gues we have to experiment some more real time. But wiki is lovely as well, sure. 
KC:
Hi – Jeff alerted me to this site after seeing my post at Skype. I’m in the northeast and my drummer pal is in the deep south. Recently we experimented with a Swedish videoconferencing site called Marratech.com. You download some software, then go to a public “room.” When you shut off the video, the audio quality is quite good--for conversation. But for music, the delay was severe and it did not seem to provide true full-duplex.
We also tried Skype and AIM and (if memory serves) Yahoo Messenger. But only intermittent drum beats came through as I strummed guitar on my end.
There must be a solution! I would be glad to help with any experiments. (With the caveat that I’m a pretty lame guitarist!)
MattisManzel:
Hi KC. This was not planned here and kinda doesn’t really fit into my scedule. I’m busy these days with making node-wikis for university-wiki, city-wikis and wiki-hives (ea. node-wiki for city-wikis: wiki-node - if someboby knows more of them please add them). But I agree, there will be a solution and going for it is worth the efford I guess. There is great potential in real-time audio conversation - and that’s what a jam session basically is, right? Let’s collect some proposals for software. The WikiNode will be of help when connecting to other wiki on audio - there must be hoards of ‘em already.
MattisManzel:
I’ve just started this wiki after a thread in the skype forum and a chat with jeff - who’s interested in making global jam sessions work as well.
JeffSturges:
Mattis and I just engaged in a brilliant display of musicianship…Mattis on lead harmonica and me on percussion blue jeans… We used Skype, but the delay was a bit tough…
I wonder if there are others programs that may be better (Jabber, Shoutcast, Peercast, etc.)
Then again, maybe the music could work around the delay, or maybe the interest is in predicting the delay. Thoughts?