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Archive 2007-07-22 Ting

archive 2007-07-22 ting

The 2007-07-22 ting

18:00, duration: ~ 2 hours

participants


ma: hm, the old way of numbering tings n, n+1, etc ain’t it on the long run. We lost track around ting_85 or so anyhow. The tings in the collab-editor-wiki and in the ting-camp-wiki have their titles like 2007-07-22_Ting. I’d imagine a suffix for the topic and a suffix for the language in case they should get more numerous (better be prepared). [[2008-02-23_Ting_Astronomy_DA?]]. The ting about astronomy in Danish on 2008-02-23. A type of tings I could imagine to start soon are tings for wiki-wednesdays. Preparative ones as well as post-event ones to draw conclusions but also (after a bit of evolvement of ting-culture) tings parallel to an event. I still like the idea of having a beamer display the collab-editor ting page behind a speaker + the ting audience, located in the same room as well as scattered around the globe summarizing and commenting on it in real time.
I remember sj - who is a fast typer - live summarizing a speech of Jimbo on the wikimania 2005 in irc. That was cool. One more guy who corrects the typos an inch behind the summarizer’s cursor and you have the prerequisites for global participation.

sh: Correcting as you type is very distracting. Then again, if you don’t summarize live, you probably never do.

ma: needs to be tried out. If not two people then eight people, maybe?

sh: If one man can dig a 1m×1m×1m hole in the ground in an hour, how long will it take to do it for six men?

ma: difference is: around a hole of one by one meter four men take all the working space. On collab editor is more space. You allways have your ellbows free.

sh: See? Here one man takes it all. There is only one end.

ma: no idea, really. One has to try. Lion always surprised me with his summarizing-skills. Having the right people with it is the point, I guess. Same with translation. A speech could be understandably translated almost in real time. Twenty seconds delay maybe. Again: the right people. All these 6000 translators costing tax-money at Brussels for example.

sh: Written traslations are very different from spoken ones. And you can’t really tanslate faster than a paragraph at a time without losing/distorting the meaning. This is very important in politics.

ma: A danger of distortion exists, I agree. But there is always the crowd, who can correct or even fork a translation of a section in the ten minutes after it was spoken. This is all very hypothetical. Nevertheless, I’d still like to see how gobby behaves when you got 50 people going ape on it.
Not only “correct” but also “delete”, hihi.

sh: Have you seen what happens when 2 people try to correct in the same place in gobby? Imagine this with 10 people :) They will kill each other with their shovels.

ma: Possible. But also possible that the remaining ones finally collaborate. :) The common dog-grave-digging metaphor is not too bad btw. A person to invite for the next ting is definitely timfly. He’ll join and make test. Didn’t tell him this time, sorry. And tpfennig might join too.

sh: We had a large number of tings and we haven’t really produced anything, we could as well do these discussions on IRC, I can’t see why we need Gobby for that. Plus, it’s easier to get people on IRC – it works on Mac and many people have an IRC client running anyways.

ma: IRC is backstage, hidden, non public. Gobby is stage. Especially with the (billiant) web-preview. It’s transmitted stage. The Mac argument is a strong point, true. We produced, like also today, but we didn’t ever really digest our production.

sh: There are web-logging bots for IRC too. And it seems to me that Gobby is much more obscure than IRC. Freenode had several thousands of users just today, ting.sheep.art.pl had visitors only from two different IPs – yours and mine.

ma: Well, I swapped between Italy and Berlin, so it must be three at least. Let’s check with timfly next time (he joined the re:publica-ting in April, so he’s not on mac).

root@dionizos:~# grep ‘ting’ /var/log/lighttpd/access.log | cut -d’ ’ -f1 | sort | uniq 150.254.79.34 <– (Sheep)
213.186.44.20 <– NS1.WMAKER.NET
62.22.30.109 <– unknown
65.214.44.29 <– msn search
65.55.208.83 <– msn search
65.55.208.84 <– msn search
65.55.208.87 <– msn search
65.55.208.88 <– msn search
65.55.208.90 <– msn search
72.14.199.2 <– unknown
74.6.19.168 <– yahoo search
74.6.20.170 <– yahoo search
74.6.22.229 <– yahoo search
74.6.25.41 <– yahoo search
74.6.26.203 <– yahoo search
84.222.35.116 <– host-84-222-35-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it (Mattis)
84.75.135.124 <– 84-75-135-124.dclient.hispeed.ch (kensanata?)
85.221.133.32 <– c133-32.icpnet.pl (Sheep)
85.221.141.46 <– c141-46.icpnet.pl (Sheep)

ma: HIHI
How is the creole situation on ting-wiki? I haven’t been touching it a lot lately. But I worked on ting-camp-wiki and collab-editor-wiki which are buffers kinda in case ting should work for bigger audiences (like Danish Astonomers, etc)

sh: if I change the parser to a newer version, the content can be damaged (old markup will stop working, things will look differently than intended, etc.). You can’t remove or change markup in a living wiki, you can only add.

ma: I see. Hm. So it’s less for working but rather for trying out an early creole (I support creole, to a certain degree).

sh: Well, it works, doesn’t it? Why fix things that work?

ma: I was stuck in the sand-box trying to make a list of stuff in bold like in Oddmuse

I tried

That did not work. I wondered, hestated. Cared for collab-editor-wiki instead.

sh: Works for me. The style for the ting wiki makes italics look like bold italics, so bold italics doesn’t make much sense though. But I didn’t change anything and it works just fine.

ma: I’ll give it another try.
Little hinderings have a big effect on the “feel”, I mean.

sh: There is really only us, nobody else to hinder.

ma: Sorry, it’s great you set it all up. I’m still a ting-enthusiast (even after -counting- three years).

sh: No need to be sorry, I know how you feel, I just don’t see much sense to promote technology just for the technolgy’s sake. It’s something you use, a tool. There are no screwdriver-users clubs, but lots of hobby mechanics clubs (separate for cars, for bikes, for computers), for example.

ma: The re:publica ting was cool. Several people said on the irc channel after reading the web-preview I had posted the link to that they wanna join in on a ting-ting.

sh: That’s another problem: nobody really knows of a ting, they don’t get any notifications, even if they check the wikis, nobody knows if there is a ting today or next week or not at all.

ma: I have the tings day-page-set on ting-camp and collab-editor-wiki putting out the ting-feed.

sh: I don’t even know what ting-camp and collab-editor-wiki are :) I doubt others are better informed. Maybe there should be a link to that feed on the ting wiki? Or the feed itself, included with <rss>.

ma: ting-camp-wiki is http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/TingCamp/FrontPage
collab-editor-wiki is http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/CollabEditor/FrontPage

sh: I can google it now that I know the names. The point is, how can I even know that I should be looking for them, not to mention what to look for? It’s spread evenly all over the Internet, and each time a different place.

ma: not evenly, there is a slight tendency for a certain conglumeration ;)

sh: ok, so we have the chunky bacon. Stealth ninja pirate bunny chunky bacon.

ma: lol. Cool ting after a long while though. Fun! Bon appetit°

sh: Suppose I’m some user who just recently discovered what wikis are at all, and I stumbled upon the idea of tings somehow, where should I go to learn what they are and try one? No, scratch that.

Suppose I’m a ting enhusiast who already took part in some tings I was invited to by my friends, but I don’t keep in contact too much with them all the time, where should I go to check when they are having the next ting?

ma: On ting-wiki: tings (a day-page set), or locally on wiki-net tings

sh: http://ting.sheep.art.pl/wiki/tings says ‘Empty page…’

Mother pages of day-page-sets end on “Pages” left out in clean linking, so ting = TingPages, talk = TalkPages and so on.

sh: TingPages is the same

ma try http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/TingCamp/TingPages - I didn’t built that yet on ting-wiki. But I would. Even in creole, though it won’t make thing easier. Checking creole for clean linking compatibility will be interes-ting.

sh: welcome maxamillion :)

max: thank you :)

ma: whao, hi. you chose red, man!

“Wenn man vom Teufel spricht, ist er nicht weit”, my granny used to say, speaking the devil he ain’t far, eh sheep?

sh: hehe, we have “O wilku mowa, a wilk tuż” in polish, “speaking of the wolf, and he’s near”. I think the Englishmen have “Speaking of the devil” too.

max: yes, “Speak of the devil” is a common saying in english

sh: like the turtle and the hare, it’s even in Japanese! Some sayings are powerful.

ma: Italian evite “destino” = destiny, and if someone says it, the othes touch their balls to prevent evil. Honestly!

max: wow, that’s messed up

ma Verdi’s la “forza del destino” must be revaluated under such circumstances.

sh: what if they are women? ;)

ma: didn’t hear it mentioned in the presence of women. Don’t go out too much.

sh: Maxamillion was interested in attending my python lesson, but I didn’t prepare anything yet.

ma: we should definitely pick up on teach-tings. Ting-feed-icon with sheeps bell, …, we should.

max: i know python, just not much in the python network programming area and i was very interested.

max: is this shade of red easier for everyone to read? … sorry about the dark one in the beginning.

sh: network like sockets and stuff? it’s basically the same as in C.

max: uhmm… i dunno, just in general

sh: or do you mean web, like cgi applications and wikis?

max: either would be fun, i would probably prefer to learn the web/cgi/wiki stuff because sockets i can just look at the API docs for since i know how to code that stuff in other languages.

sh: so I should prepare a “write your own wiki engine in python” lesson :) have you guys seen the 11 loc wiki?

ma: me no.

max: me either.

sh: http://infomesh.net/2003/wypy/ <– here, it’s cool but not very readable :)

ma: 11 lines, madness. Gotta learn to program (saying it in the tone of Mathieu about his English), 23 lines appeals to me already ;)

max: omg, that is the ugliest python code i have ever seen

sh: max, you didn’t take part in many ‘shortest program’ competitions, did you? :)

max: no, i never saw the point in them… the whole “lets see how short and cryptic i can make this” thing never appealed to me

sh: I guess I will have to make a 40 loc version of a simple python wiki for our lessons :) with decent formatting and comments.

ma: Yay! Good idea!

sh: I just wonder how to allow the students to test their code – they need a web server with cgi support.

max: i have two of those at my disposal, but don’t know if i am confortable handing out accounts

sh: exactly, well, as long as it’s just people I know I have no problem with it – but if there is someone new, there will be a problem. I know that jknife, vidd and jester from #xubuntu would like to come too – but then they have their accounts on the vidd’s server, hmm…

I could try and make a standalone wiki, not needing a server, using the python’s web server from the standard library. I think that’s the best approach.

ma: I posted “we’re tinging decently http://ting.sheep.art.pl/live.cgi, join in http://ting.sheep.art.pl/wiki/Ting_Wiki” in some chanels, few though :) In the early ting-days I posted on a dozen a day before and again an hour before, but I’m too ashamed to do such recently.
Announcements for teach-tings are on teach-me-wiki http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/TeachMe/TingPages
and (in German) lehr-mich-wiki http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/LehrMich/TingSeiten. I’ soon connect them all showing all tings on every wiki’s page wiki-net tings. Look at one and get them all.

sh: hmm… Mattis, I think I’ll just contact you when I’m ready :)

ma: So will I. It will soon be autumn and people will love to (teach-)ting. ;)
We write full lines right now (which is comodo), the web preview has a horizontal scroll-bar. That would be something to still improve (later on). No big problem.

sh: better now?

ma: Totally better now!

Next ting will be 2007-07-29 ting, Sunday, 18:00 UTC (that’s 20:00 CEST, including France).

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