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A way to reduce the chances of ChangeFailure.

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I think the writeup on the Visual wiki is good, :) I just think it belongs here, rather than over there, and would orient it more specificly to wiki.

Read OnceAndOnlyOnce, and see the reply there- It explains the argument. Make sure you've read ProductiveWikiOverlap, as well.

Feel free to put a "re-oriented" version of that text here. Feel free to copy the text at Visual wiki verbatim – Visual is currently under a public domain license.

You list the pages related. This is very good. For me it is hard to keep track of the different thought streams that are running here. Naming related pages is almost as good as having a list of related pages to a thought stream and the summaries/enlarged titles of these pages. We all together should dynamically decide what a thought stream relates to. Is it possible to set links not only to a pages but also to a certain contribution on certain pages? If not would that make sense? I imagine a probably vast dynamically edited by all links section that tells what thought streams a page belongs to. Move this whereever if you feel like.

Most wiki software doesn't mark up paragraphs in a way that allows us to link directly to paragraphs inside that wiki.

I suppose the people writing the wiki software feel that it's not worth adding that feature: "If some thing inside a page is worth linking directly to, then it's worth putting on its own page."

It is technically possible, though. HTML "Fragment Identifiers" allow me to name a particular paragraph on a particular page, and then later link to it.

For example, links to the "maps" section inside that page.


Good to know, that it would work. Anyhow I don't know if this makes sense for anythnig. For long pages it would. Like html pages have links to parts within the page. That's useful on many of them and shouldn't miss on wiki. An optional automatic visialisaton of the last change of a page and a link to it within the page would be useful as well for not having to search the page revision when someone writes not at the end but somewhere in between. When things become more complex a link on places within the pages will become inevitable.
A comletly different story: As I said here before. A list of pages related toa page, a possibly vast list as a seperate part of a page. Categorizing, systematizing Wiki. Up to now there were the clusters. An exclusive modell. You say cluster, you put pages in there. Now they are in it others are outsides. You decied. What about instead of listing what not has to do with a page listing what has to do with it? I'd surely list all multilingual pages in MultilingualExperiment. But there are some manuals there as well, I'd list these among [[manuals?]] (or whatever called?) as well. Someone else now feels different and adds another page. These can be also deleted - that's common controll. A perfectly anarchic, self-controlling, dynamic structurizing-system. Make no clusters and exclude but make list what has to do with it and include. No structure tree, but a structur ameba. (You can still think of it as a tree though, when adding its development in time to your imagination) Would InclusiveStructurizing? as a name for a new page to go on with this be ok?
Maybe the beginning of pooling in wiki too. I add 1 to the degree of relation to a page, or everybody has a vote of 5 and I add here 2 here another 2 here and 1 to a new page of relation I add to the list. Or I give a certain percentage of my vote to a related page. Sorry folks, but 'lot to do.
This is obviously also the reson why I had been insistin on the timestamp. It introduces time into our imagination. In history there have been artists, thinkers, scientists who said things long before they got commonly understood, Giordano Bruno, Miles Davis, … all of them great folks. Their wok has been conserved. Why do we insted loose everything deleted here after a fertnight in the page history? When recording and storing information hasn't ever been as easy as now, since five seconds, in human history? You can though still think of it (the ameba) as a tree though, when adding the perfect record of everything to it. Don't you think a musician today would'nt be interested in the record of an improvisation Johann Sebastian Bach did on his clavicimbal?

summary block:

  • inclusive sructurizing
  • perfect record and timetamping
  • see the tree structure of the ameba in time

I think we already have exactly the structuring system you want – a single page can be categorized into 2 or more completely different categories simultaneously. See Wiki:CategoryCategory.

I'll have to think about your other ideas some more.

EditHint: I want to move my text to

DavidCary 2004-02-04 07:13 UTC

Example for a permanent example Fine-grained linking can happen using PermanentAnchors?. These are unique across the entire wiki. They can be linked to as if they were normal pages. In a way they act like a PageAlias. Example: Example for a permanent example. Maybe all we need is a different way of explaining and using the functionality available to us.

I'm terrible, so just ignore me, but:
A different way of using … pretty likely that. There are clusters, categories and these permanent anchors, which are still cryptic to me, but there is a lot here indeed. How to use it? Maybe this green rain of falling signs and letters in the opening of "Matrix" are the recent changes of all wikilandia? Information overload per definitinem, impossible to uncrypt for any individual? The lifestream of the hive-mind.
Take the swarm. Every single hering has different recent changes. It is not only the physical local position within the swarm that makes the surounding for the tasty fish and determines what it senses to have "receintly changed" in this surounding and which is the bunch of sensations that the animal can "choose" to react on or not react on. I'm pretty sure there are communication structures within a swarm that allow contact despite absence of physical closeness. Do herrings wiki? Do they have hobbies and talk about them from one end of the swarm to the other? What the hack do I mean?
I think I mean individual recent changes. Determined by your behaviour and the behaviour of the others. What have you been doing, reading, changing, writing, how did you react on others, how did others react on you? That's what makes your life, shapes your path that's why you see things from a different window than I do. It should shape your Wiki-recent changes as well. I know I'm about to loose all respect here, but I think we need the perfect record of everything. The only deletion comes out of the system wich is perfectly determined by us (all). Like FreeNet?, it gradually "forgets" what hasn't been looked upon anymore. This means the completly open individual. Outch!

What neat ideas, Mattis… yes, I suppose that if you really had infinite information overload, it would be kind of like the Matrix sigils…. and I like the idea of thinking of a swarm in terms of a stimulus RecentChanges for each individual…

Define external redirect: FreeNet PermanentAnchors InclusiveStructurizing manuals