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SigiVIIB

sylvie : salut sigi, la vie est belle ? I'm happy to read you but ich verstehe nicht Deutsch nur "Eigentum ist Diebstahl" for mysterious reasons :)

sigi : salut . yes, i'm still living . but it's hard .. . alex told me to leave his wiki (that's the reason for "eigentum ist diebstahl" (it's not this wiki, it's the community)) . if i could take some of us with me, i wouldn't hesitate ;)
yes, we need some good translators here . i would offer some S·terra for this . but i have no S·terra . you didn't allow me to have some ;)

sylvie : why Alex told you to leave ? what's the matter ? maybe the same problem that YannLeGuennec and me have with ChristopheDucamp on the Crao, because you can contribute but where and how others people decide without your agreement. At the enter of the wiki something says "hello, welcome, this wiki is your wiki" and time after time you discover that it's not your wiki, no!no! and at the same time the community puppet appears "hop!" to say "the law is the law" ;)

sigi : true, true, true . that's the law ;) . what can we do?

sylvie : We don't need open source, open project, open whatever if we are not open mind, open source doesn't mean anything if it proposes the same system of rules than ended system. <<Tools not rules>>

<<if i could take some of us with me, i wouldn't hesitate ;)>> Except the problem of language I think if you launch something on another wiki some people will follow you :)… But it's true the question of a common language is an important point, and at the same time we can imagine that if a project interest people, people find solution to work together on it, no ?

sigi : there is a nice project for our group : http://tutori.de/?Test . it's a wiki in status nascendi yet . ist's now on a pc (and therefore not continuously reachable), but in september or so it may be launched on a server . the 25-year-old developer doesn't speak enough english to communicate, but mattis and i can help . perhaps we can make this wiki common .

sylvie : why not :) but what is about this nice project ? …. status nascendi : it's a new expression for me…

sigi : it's latin . étape de la naissance or so . the wiki is thought for all people and all topics . no camel case . formatting-syntax is intuitiv and simple: always [X … X], where X is a different charakter like '=', '*', '/', '(' '!' .. .

sylvie : he interesting !it's something like BlueMoon of NicolasMontessuit ?

sigi : hmm, i'm not shure, but perhaps blue·moon is interesting for us too, in any case nicolas is :)

sylvie : yes :)

sigi : the important thing here is, in my opinion, that we can learn to act as a group and to enlarge our group (if we can make an agreement with basti (sebastian or sk-genius (nickname)), the developer of tutori) .

sylvie : yes and maybe we have to search how to deal between collective and individual works. Maybe we can experiment simultaneously different ways on different locations to observe what the different ways can offer, and so how the different ways can interact between them to make visible what it's possible to choose for each of us according to what each one need.

alex: And just to add my point of view: I cannot work together with disrespectful people. I don't want to do it.

[Christophe Ducamp xtof]: Just my 2 eurocents post. First, I do agree with Alex about my inability to cope with disrespectful people. About the problem mentioned above by sylvie : let's say I've perhaps made some errors but interpreted some Yann's reactions as "trolling" and "lack of respect" towards some people. Yann has used his RightToLeave. Is this a definitive GoodBye ? I don't mind. [fr] Sylvie si tu es prête à jouer la médiatrice, saurais-tu NommerLeConflit1 en LangageClair ? Je pense que nous connaissons globalement un ConflitSain associé à une barrière de langage. Je pense aussi que nous touchons là (et ce même en LangueFrançaise….) les limites du médium wiki pour les conversations. Nous démontrons -une fois de plus- que LeWikiEstFondéSurLeDocument. Rien de bien grave j'espère : Étudions ensemble d'autres FormeDeCollaboration. J'imaginerais bien une CollaborationFortuite où l'on soit capable de se parler de manière synchrone (le téléphone n'a jamais tué personne et a souvent permis d'AtténuerEmotions… !) pour faire connaître vos travaux que je ne suis pas le seul à avoir du mal à comprendre… Passe-moi un coup de fil Sylvie si tu veux ;) Bonne journée à tous.

sylvie : les limites dont tu parles ne sont pas dues au wiki mais à celle que tu poses toi même, et à présent je peux te le dire j'ai atteint mes propres limites quand à ton comportement et à celle de communautés soi disantes ouvertes mais seulement si on croit au bienfait de la lobotomie, alors une fois pour toute : " je n'ai rien de plus à te dire ", la vie es trop courte pour que je perde mon temps et mon énergie avec des discussions de salon et autre morale à deux balles.

alex: I don't know anything about your conflicts on Crao, but clearly if you think that participating in this community means that you should get a lobotomy, then it is probably better to part ways.

sigi: wonderful . things go on . now, for the first time in wiki·history we can ask: is there a community ? therefore i'm here, to learn about this question .
We don't need open source, open project, open whatever if we are not open mind, open source doesn't mean anything if it proposes the same system of rules than ended system.
is there something new here ? can we have two groups and one community ((alex, helmut, lion, mattis ..) (sylvie, sigi, mattis ..)) or is alex the community (lion, did i understand you right, that you mean that ?) ?

lion: I have no idea what's going on here, it's 2/3 in German. Through BabelFish, it seems that there is some sort of argument that grew most visible first on InterCommunityCooperation. It seems like there is an IntegrationAndIdentity conflict here. It seems like we should just have 2 groups, and keep in touch with each other. I don't think that we really dislike each other, (though there seem to be hard feelings at the moment,) just that we don't want to interact by the same protocols. So, it seems like we should have 2 groups, and just keep in touch. Like MB and CW.

alex: I agree with Lion.

sigi: yes, that's correct about the two groups . but what about the community ?

alex: The two groups should have separate wikis – separate responsibility.

sigi: yes, that's the point of view of your group, but not of mine ;)
and that's the art of your software, but not of mine .

alex: Indeed, the real world is big, we can avoid each other easily. But in order to work together, people come together, and wikis include several limitations that make it inevitable that we keep bumping into each other – RecentChanges, and a single namespace. Plus there is no good framework for collective ownership in place. What do you propose, therefore? What is your point of view?

sigi : i bet, you are not a lodger (tenant) . most people are and for them indeed the real world is small . it's so damned small, the irakis can't avoid the americans .
but in wiki, there is place for a billion of groups .
recent changes ? where is the problem ? see my text above (SigiVIIA) .
name·space ? the whole internet is one name·space . i don't understand, what you mean (but if you have suse 9.x i'll show you my soft·ware . there's no name·space problem) .
collective ownership : yes, that's the problem ;)

alex: Your argument is not convincing. Essentially you do not answer and ask me back: "Where is the problem?" Let me repeat: I believe that on this wiki there is one namespace and one RecentChanges and the two of us do not get along. I want you and me to use different wikis. Since collective ownership is not an option at the moment, my solution to the problem is that you have to find a different wiki. If you want to propose a different solution, please do so. Going on with "business as usual" seems hardly an option unless you can convince me otherwise.

sigi : ok, that's your point of view . now, where is the community ?

alex: What do you want? It is I who has a problem with you. Maybe there are others who have a problem as well. Maybe there are many that don't care. Do you want to make a table? Voting, a jury? I think we need to find a solution between the two of us.

sigi : no, since I feel obliged to the community, too.
i want to hear, how the others feel by that . maybe there are others who have my problem as well (that this is in the long run a private wiki, not a community·wiki).


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Footnotes:

1. NameTheConflict

EditNearLinks: AtténuerEmotions ConflitSain GoodBye BlueMoon RightToLeave NicolasMontessuit NameTheConflict FormeDeCollaboration CollaborationFortuite PatrickAnderson NommerLeConflit BabelFish

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