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2004-04-05

FYI:

this blog post was refactored into a page called WikisAreUgly `

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Aesthetics in wikis for better InterWiki usability?

My links here are old, 2003- so I'm assuming this is an old topic- but I am new to it.

The comments on this page offer a good discussion about aesthetics and wikis, the convo starts from a rather superficial point of view: Brent’s Law of Wikis

"I want to like wikis. But for some reason every wiki I’ve ever seen is, well, ugly."

But the comments offer more in-depth discussion, especially about the problems of the textual layout, and legibility.

Conversly, this article at Corante praises the simplicity and lack of visual context, and the un-designing of wikis: WIkis Are Beautiful

"Context is gained from the page's revisions, links and how it is referenced by and navigated from other pages. Wikis excel at logical context whereas blog excel at temporal context."

As a new user of wikis, I am completely confused between 4-5 wikis right now that i've been reading, and I think this is exacerbated by the fact that they all look exactly the same, minus the corner icons. For example, I may remember something interesting I read, but did not think to bookmark or subscribe to. I can even remember where on the page it was (top or bottom) but sometimes I can't remember which wiki it was on.

I was wondering if anyone else thought that considering aesthetics in the design of wikis could increase usability? Or is the purity and simplicity of wikis better? Is my confusion a good thing? Maybe it is?

There would be other issues to bring up with aesthetics, but in terms of at least differentiating between wikis, and giving each a kind of visual identity- considering aesthetics could create better InterWiki usability.

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I never thought about it this way. I guess you are right. Here are the wikis I spend most of my time on: Emacs Wiki, My Homepage, Oddmuse, Meatball Wiki, and CommunityWiki. And it is true, superficially (discounting the logo) Community Wiki, Emacs Wiki and Meatball are very similar. MurrayAltheim actually sent me a screenshots a new Community Wiki look in shades of green. I will ask him for the CSS and the images... ;)

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I originally pulled this down, since it didn't seem like the right place for this kind of reflection? I was thinking of trying it at IAwiki. (But I need to spend time there to see if it would fit; just like I need to spend time here to see what fits and where.)

Are you saying MurrayAltheim is working on a design for this wiki? Excellent! I like the idea alot. When it comes down to it, I think it reflects the make-up of the wiki user group. Those who work on front-end design are more likely to not only notice, but also to be able to effectively make changes where they see fit.

I just wonder to what extent the 'undesign' of the wikis you mention might be important... or to what extent people may be resistant to change? I noticed on your personal site you use CSS, and allow for user-customized CSS. Skinning, or un-skinning may be the best option over all. -- HeatherJames

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Well, it also works for this site (since the two sites use the same engine). See Themes for the CSS links. But that wouldn't solve the real problem: Newcomers such as yourself don't know about it. And if the default is drab, your original point still holds: All wikis look "same same but different."

As to the the "undesign" -- I think that you would have to start from a historical perspective:

  • "A wiki is the simplest online database that could possibly work." -- Ward [1]
  • "Simplicity above all." -- Sunir [2]

By now, most wikis I know look really fancy. The idea of using the simplest representation possible is therefore something that the first wiki founders chose to do, either because they believed that simplicity was key, or because they believed that this somehow promoted ContentOverForm. These days I think most people recognize the importance of both ContentAndForm?. ;)

The "wiki user group" is spread far wider, and for more diverse than the look at the initial wikis like WardsWiki or MeatballWiki would suggest.

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Ding! a light just went on. Thank you. I have alot of catching up to do. This site has been very helpful. I guess I've only been looking at mainly wiki software, and those sites you mention. I'll have to keep my eye out for more differently designed wikis to change my perception.

How did you get the form into that page Specify a different CSS? I pulled the code from the source, but of course it doesn't work in the SandBox. How'd you do that? (I think it's time I installed OddMuse!)

I'd like to use this in a tutorial I am doing. It would be perfect. (I was trying to figure out how you made those links from within your on blog to check out various style sheets- but I'm guessing you wrote them manually? I tried on my own page)

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Yes, I wrote the various CSS-switching links on my homepage myself.

The Oddmuse:Form_Extension allows arbitrary HTML within the form. Back in the old days, many people were afraid of allowing arbitrary HTML on a wiki, because some hackers might do evil things with, like installing Javascript on your computer and changing the config of your system. As a security measure, the form extension only works on locked pages. If you copy the source to the SandBox, it won't work anymore. ;)

As for fancy wikis, here's one I looked at the other day: XWiki, and its complex XWiki Architecture, or SnipSnap.

thanks for the The Oddmuse:Form_Extension link. i just found it this very second- shoulda looked harder before asking. i'm trying to prepare for OddMuse install, and think this extension would come in handy ~h

[new] I don't really understand the whole wikis are ugly thread. The real focus should be on usability since one has to use the wiki day in and day out, not look at it. A lot of wasted visual clutter just gets in the way after the FirstReading. We predict that the more fluffy the wiki is, the wider the reader to writer gap becomes, and then the wiki will fall apart. That being said, the current look of MeatballWiki is unusable, and should be made simpler. We stuck to pure text because it was a good design goal to keep the site simple, but now I think it's worth exploring a more visual style (rather than a purely lexical style) especially since screen readers have become so much better in the last four years. For what it's worth, I consider http://kuro5hin.org to be an excellent example of both simplicity and aesthetics. -- SunirShah

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Just to confirm: I'm in communication with Alex regarding a logo and CSS for the wiki. I'm pretty swamped with writing a paper for the next week or so, but after that I'll have a breather. One thing about what I'm doing is that the changes to the wiki, apart from a potential change of the logo, are not structural, everything is in the stylesheet. There are a number of things one can do to make text easier to read, such as reducing the column width a bit, delineating headers and footers better with color and font changes, etc. I'll experiment..

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Murray -- i saw the new logo somewhere and can't find it again now; i really liked the vibrancy of the colours and the writing!

Sunir -- i am not sure how you can completely separate usability and look -- if i use something all day long i look at it all day long! if the look hurts my eyes, you can bet i won't use it gladly, or at all. i don't think MeatballWiki is unusable, but it could use some really basic design improvements that don't even go into the look. for example, having simple formatting rules on the edit page would be a huge step forward, what with wikis having different syntax. personally i prefer switchable style sheets because my eyes like light text on dark background, and most people seem wedded to the inverse. i know, i should write this on Meatball itself and i will as soon as i find the right page for it, but my remarks are mostly general. one of the reasons i really jumped on this wiki right away was that the background colour change and picture make discussion so much easier to follow.

piranha, thanks! It's at CommunityWikiLogo. I just added a new one. --MurrayAltheim

Define external redirect: ContentAndForm

EditNearLinks: SunirShah SandBox MeatballWiki FirstReading WardsWiki WikiMatrix PatrickAnderson

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