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2008-03-07

Hello Wiki readers!

May I seek a little of your time to do a research survey? If you are an active user or contributor to a company wiki, please consider taking this survey and your response will greatly assist in the study of the individual’s perceptions towards adopting Wiki technology innovation.

The title of the survey is called “Survey on Adoption of Wiki Technology Innovation”. The objective is to deepen the understanding of the adoption of Wiki technology innovation by individuals in organizations, and the Wiki technology’s diffusion within the organization. I would appreciate your expert view and feedback on the survey. Also, may I kindly seek your assistance in forwarding this email to your colleagues, friends, or anybody you think use wiki in organizations. I hope it will not take too much of your time.

Here is a link to the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=zfANP1maT_2ffOLCMljGEMbA_3d_3d
This short survey will take about 10-15 minutes to complete.

Thank you very much for your time!

Cheers, Lin Weizhang
B08249@gmail.com
Student of Singapore Institute of Management

2008-02-25

Look! they covered us here:

http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2008/02/the-liberator-a.html

and here http://www.boingboing.net/2008/02/25/open-source-compress.html

If you know of anyone who would like to micro-fund the rapid development of this, or of flexible fabrication, or even someone who would like to place an order for flexible fabrication, we are in a position to fill orders for some of these open design products, at costs well below competing commercial offerings (sometimes a factor of 10 times below)

Or, if you are interested in open product development, or in creating a business around it, we (myself and Marcin, and others involved) are offering support and infrastructure and training. Marcin is offering to bring people to his location, and will teach you to construct these machines, plus help you build and sell as many as you want, and will give you profits to put towards start up money for your own flexible fabrication business.

2008-02-20

A question to CommunityWiki:

What IDE’s do you use or recommend (Wikipedia:Integrated_development_environment)? For Perl, for Python, Ruby, PHP, Java?

Right now, I am using eclipse for PHP, and emacs for everything else. I respect your opinions here, and any advice you can give is appreciated.

I use EMACS & the command line. (In particular, I use unittest, a Python unit testing module, to run tests.)

I used to have apretty elaborate development environment when I was writing in C: vim, make, ident, cproto, ctags, splint…

I’m still mainly working in vim (there is no better editor for remote work over ssh), but started to switch to gedit for editing local files (it’s an almost usable editor after you disable almost everything andinstall some plugins for missing commands, oh, and a non-fruit-salad color theme). Python has the advantage that you really only need a simple text editor – even syntax highlighting isn’t necessary. Oh, and for editing multiple files (and generally file management) I started to use Thunar – it’s pretty usable with its “open terminal here” command. I also started to use Mercurial as the revision control system.

I use Emacs for everything, but at work I use Eclipse for Java.

I live in GNU Emacs, but should really get out more.

Here’s a collection of more esoteric stuff I’ve found over the years that may be of interest:

http://www.SRCF.UCAM.org/~dmi1000/roboc Roboc is designed as a teaching language, so it doesn’t require any previous programming experience, and is suitable for short courses (from two hours to two weeks). Relatively young programmers (14-17 years) should find it OK. It has been developed in conjunction with programming classes for such students, and has evolved based on the issues which were observed during teaching. To keep things simple we added only those language features which turned out to be necessary (for example, and was added to conditions because deeply nested if statements caused difficulty for some students).

http://Eidola.org Eidola is a representation-independent, object-oriented, visual programming language.

http://LittleWizard.sf.net Little Wizard is a development environment for children. It is intended to be used by primary school children to learn about the main elements of real computer languages. Using only the mouse, children can explore programming concepts such as variables, expressions, loops, conditions, and logical blocks. Every element of the language is represented by an intuitive icon, making it easy to learn.

http://SmallBASIC.sf.net The SmallBASIC? project aims to provide a full featured and easy to use interpreted language suitable for non serious programming on any computing platform.

http://kidBasic.sf.net (now BASIC-256)BASIC-256 is an easy to use version of BASIC designed to teach young children the basics of computer programming. It uses traditional control structures like gosub, for/next, and goto, which helps kids easily see how program flow-control works. It has a built-in graphics mode which lets them draw pictures on screen in minutes, and a set of detailed, easy-to-follow tutorials that introduce programming concepts through fun exercises.

http://edu.KDE.org/kturtle KTurtle is an educational programming environment for the KDE Desktop. KTurtle aims to make programming as easy and touchable as possible, and therefore can be used to teach kids the basics of math, geometry and… programming.

http://wxDsgn.sf.net wxDev-C is an extension of Dev-C by Colin Laplace et. al. This program helps you to create dialogs and frames for wxWidgets visually using a form designer. With all the wonderful features of Dev-C, wxDev-C is still being actively developed. The main aim of this project is to provide the wxWidgets community with a free, open-source, commercial-grade IDE/RAD tool for development with wxWidgets.

http://BabyDevelop.sf.net BabyDevelop? is a lightweight Integrated Development Environment for C, C++, Qt and support for the GP2X/SDL. Easy to use, fast to start and compile, expandable in functional range for anyone. For Linux, Mac OS X and Windows (cygwin).

http://CodeBlocks.org Code::Blocks is a free C++ IDE built to meet the most demanding needs of its users. It is designed to be very extensible and fully configurable.

http://UltimatePP.org Ultimate is a C cross-platform rapid application development suite focused on programmers productivity. It includes a set of libraries (GUI, SQL, etc..), and an integrated development environment. - Rapid development is achieved by the smart and aggressive use of C rather than through fancy code generators. In this respect, U competes with popular scripting languages while preserving C/C++ runtime characteristics.

http://Members.Save-Net.com/jko%40save-net.com/asm (DesktopLinuxAsm?, asmide)>>If you enjoy assember coding and think it is more than a technique to optimize slow code then you are in the right place.

http://Anjuta.org

http://April-Child.com implemented in javascript and Ruby

http://GetFirebug.com Firebug integrates with Firefox to put a wealth of web development tools at your fingertips while you browse. You can edit, debug, and monitor CSS, HTML, and JavaScript live in any web page.

Ah, that firebug links reminds me that I wouldn’t be able to work efficiently without Firefox’s Web Developer Toolbar.

2008-01-31 HwoToDo

2008-01 plans...
  • 2008-01-07 … try applying some of the emerging MicroContent concepts to my postings in this Blog.
    • the <include… ‘exclude’ trick may be quite useful.
      • explain that since <include… stops after 1 level, it is possible to exclude SubWiki working notes.
    • Hwo:2008-01-31 is being used to avoid cluttering the CommunityWiki blog.

2008-01-28

As a competition to CommunityWikiBank I would like to start an institution for non-quantitative capital. There will be no one exchange standard. For the start there will be just two rules: every transaction will be recorded and everything will be subject of open debate. The main idea is in helping each other in conducting our own private businesses - i.e. things that already have a real value for us (for example projects that we are paid for) - not in doing some common projects that can have some value in the future. I think this is exactly what the metaphor of BarnRising? suggests.

ZbigniewLukasiak

I also like these two rules and have assumed that they will be incorporated into both CommunityWikiBank and CwB (CommunityWikiBusiness?), ever since Lion and Alex suggested the use of the Ledger. “Open Source” accounting software.

As for “…no one exchange standard”, I think that multiple (foreign) exchange standards are essential since even the few current CommunityWiki participants span many countries. One practical example… I’ve been quite fascinated by the incredible changes that have taken place in the relative values of the loan made to Lion in $.us that were “purchased” in $.ca. Foreign Exchange transactions are nothing new, but the swings in these relative values during the 10 months of this loan have been very large! Managing this type of shifting value is one of the significant challenges of faced by each countries central banks in their international dealings.

Just imagine how much more complicated this will get when you can also “store” value in “horseshoe nails”, “chickens” “bread” or “BobDollars”, each of which is also certain to be affected by real market “supply and demand” considerations, as well as the “cost of living” in different countries and the real competition that arises from their different standards of living!

Hmmm…Hans, I definitely agree that supporting AlternativeCurrency could throw in un-needed complexity.

Yet, I also like the challenge that I think Zby is posing, which could let the best methods and currencies rise to the top, if it is managed carefully.

But, I agree with Hans that it would be most equitable if we would at least create a way to fairly track relative values based on different factors on an ongoing basis. This is tough task, but then again leaves room for us to evolve or improve upon existing solutions and conditions.

We need a new exchange rate system, that is based on our ecology, and should be open for debate along with everything else…

2007-12-31 en

I don’t know why, but for some reason, there was an edit lock on the whole site.

I just turned it off, it seemed to be an “appropriate thing to do” before the new year begins.

Happy new year!

Happy New Year to you too, Lion, as well as to everyone else.

  • I noticed that this site crashed a few days ago and was down for about 1 half a day. I think the edit lock may be a result of that since, if memory serves, that’s what happened about a year ago too. Oh well…
    • “All’s well that ends well” (which this year certainly is doing!

Happy Unlocking New Year, CommunityWiki!

Look, OddMuse with FCKEditor on my iBookG4!:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2062/2152224959_27b0b52850_d.jpg

Going to launch http://lansingwiki.org, soon, as a CivicWiki? for Lansing, MI. USA Will be using OddMuse, and will be working on connecting Perl modules, such as http://search.cpan.org/~sderle/Geo-Coder-US/US.pm http://search.cpan.org/~sderle/Geo-Coder-US/US.pm http://search.cpan.org/src/ALLENDAY/Geo-Google-0.05/lib/Geo/Google.pm

And, connecting with WikiCalc andor SocialCalc for community-generated data. Will use FCkeditor, Static page serving, fastcgi, or evetnually mod-perl on all, if I can get access to a decent server. Probably will use one of TheSheep stylesheets. Maybe will look into http:/www.oddmuse.org/cgi-bin/oddmuse/Comments_on_Security_Considerations https for admin pass.

Happyness as the default (here and now and always, not only when a new year starts) to all peers here, myself included :-)

2007-12-25 HwoToDo

 <include "http://www.r-and-a.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/FrHwoFavs/?action=browse;id=PoTw;raw=1">

080107….

  • include commented out because it refers to a Picture Of The Week, which changes, replacing the original Xmas image.
    • add a link to the original, but do not include the whole thing since it merely clutters the CW Blog.
      • Explain the significance of the Picture Of The Day in the context of Community Wiki Business ideas.

Thanks, Hans!

Merry Christmas to you, too!

Merry Christmas to everyone here!

(Sweet transclusion demonstration, btw!)

  • Thanks, Lion. I’m very keen on my recent work with TransClusion, in particular…
    • TiddlyWiki has recently improved its ability to read external source and render it.
    • The OddMuse “…action=…;raw-1” works well, making it possible to extract the source for an OddMuse page and render in within a TiddlyWiki wrapper. There seem to be a great many uses for this (since TiddlyWiki is a very hot development area and javascript is a very effective client-side resource)….
      • One that I am really stress testing just now, takes advantage of TiddlyWiki’s superb tagging capabilities to craft a fully tagged “wrapper” around common wiki source stored in an oddmuse wiki on my personal systems.
      • A neat combination is the use of the oddmuse …copy:http… to have a page on my personal system then automatically copy itself to various public hives such as the lone that I am creating for a flickr group (which is where this Xmas greeting originates).
  • This is really just the tip of the ice-berg. 2007 was a great “re-tooling” year for me. 2008 will now have many wonderful opportunities to “roll all of this out”. I think its going to be a great and Happy New Year!

2007-12-17

Dear community wiki people,

What do you think about Google’s “knol” tool? – DavidCary

"Why Wikipedia Will Win" by Tim Beyers of Motley Fool is dismissive of “knol”.

To me it looks like a complete opposite of a wiki – where wiki is egoless and emphasizes content, this one puts the emphasis on authors and user comments.

It’s a great new way to display Google’s text ads. Google’s task is to find new and exciting ways to increase the visibility of their text ads, which is the only way that Google reall makes very much money. I am still waiting to see text ads in GoogleEarth?… Come on Google! Also, where is Google Pictures? Not to mention Google’s obligatory SocialNetwork? Why hasn’t Google bought DIGG, or Facebook yet? They are missing out on some really valuable ad space here… :)

2007-12-10

http://wagn.org/wagn/Wagn.org What does Wagn do?

From note-taking to knowledge management, from daily todo lists to a public directory of company and product information, from back-of-envelope to database, and from rolodex to operations manuals: Wagn is remarkably flexible. Kind of a jack of all trades. So what makes Wagn different from a normal wiki, like Wikipedia.org?

Wikis yield documents, Wagn yields databases.

Wikis are a great way for people to work together on writing and linking ideas. But they’re not really gunning for structure. Cross-referencing, creating complex relationships, working with detailed information such as numbers and dates, validating content, standardizing formats… tough to impossible in a normal wiki. Wagn, like databases, lets you ask specific questions (or “queries”) and get back precise answers. Wikis…. not so much. Suppose you want to know which companies make paper that’s more than 50% post-consumer recycled? In a wiki, all the information may be in some interlinked wiki pages about companies, but the software can’t easily extract and present it, and it could take hours for a person to search, read, and compile it all. With wagn, you can ask the same question and get back a nice, precise list of companies as your answer. And, unlike normal databases, Wagn lets you get there organically, without working out every detail of your data structure beforehand.

2007-11-27 en

log of a conversation between SamRose and LionKimbro

I’ve put “:star: STAR” in the text, to mark crescendos.


Samuel: Wow, David Korten is really labor-intensive to work with [smile]

me: heh… What’s he have you doing?

Samuel: I am recreating his site in Drupal.

me: wOw..! That’s a big undertaking!

Samuel: it just takes a lot of explaining, and explaining, and explaining, and explaining that is the hardest part

me: What kind of stuff are you explaining?

Samuel: I am almost done making the site

He is basically wanting to know how to keep the site updated himself, etc.

me: Oh, that’s good!

Samuel: yeah, he is learning

me: Well, I’m glad you’re able to work with him so well; I’ve had a really hard time of it, personally.

Samuel: it’s just been really intense, because he wants to be able to adjust and control everything he sees, and It’s difficult sometimes to exlpain to him why he can’t always control it all from his end (as opposed to hacking php or css for instance)

me: ah… Right, …

Samuel: I have found him difficult to work with, too, but something compelling me to keep working with him (not sure what it is) [smile]

me: Well, it’s probably something good.

His program is great.

And it’s probably educational to work with someone so high-powered.

Samuel: I have worked with clients like him before, so it’s not too big of a deal

me: And the people around him are interesting, too.

Samuel: to deal with his nature

i have not yet met too many of the people around him

me: It hasn’t been easy to connect with people around him--

in meetings, it’s sort of – he’s the center of the wheel.

Samuel: The problem is they have isolated themselves

me: There’s not much cross-conversation.

Samuel: and they have put him on a pedastal, and I think he’s gotten used to that pedastal

me: What do you mean by “isolated themselves,” and “the problem?”

I would agree with that, …

Samuel: “the problem”: why it’s hard to easily connect

me: One of the interesting things I heard at the storyfield conference,

Samuel: with them

me: from two people directly, and an unspoken sense around it, …

…was: “Dis-illusionment about our leadership.”

Samuel: “isolated themselves” from the growing networks of people interested in similar things out there

me: Which I think is a good thing; People were still committed to the work.

Compare/contrast RMS/ESR.

:star: STAR

Samuel: yeah, I think people are starting to shift from what I’ll call being “guru addictred” to being more interested in becoming self sufficient

me: Or, “network-sufficient.”

Samuel: yeah

with the need for a “guru” which was a big thing in the 90’s

me: I think there’s still an important space for gurus.

I’ve been looking at the Federation of Damanhur lately, and I don’t think it’d exist without Falco.

Samuel: yes, but I am also glad for new focus on network-sufficiency,there was too much focus on gurus before, IMO

:star: STAR

me: Can I turn the conversation in a funny direction? This is something emerging out for me, and I’m curious about what you think.

Samuel: sure

me: “Indigenous modes of thought.”

When I was at the storyfield conference, there was a sentence someone said,

Skye Burn, actually; She leads various bodies of UNESCO, or something like that--

she said that: “Reinclusion of indigenous thinking is essential to what we are doing here.”

Or something like that.

Since then, I met a woman who went to Mila (in Africa, and I may have the name wrong,) and then just now I’m looking at the Federation of Damanhur.

And also remembering my experiences at the Evolutionary Salons, and the Storyfield Conference.

I think that there’s something “here,” that’s clearly working.

These people at Damanhur are totally nuts, but look at what they do, and look at their thoughts that really matter-

Samuel: I need to check out damanhur

me: and it’s totally amazing.

Most communes in the US, they collapse, or they suffer attrition, and float at about 100 people (like Twin Oaks, East Winds, …) the people are cynical and frustrated and encapsulated and so on.

Samuel: US culture spent a lot of time wiping out, or pushing down “Indigenous thinking”

:star: STAR

me: But, at Damanhur, they’re at 1,000 people, have very close relationships with cities and neighboring authorities, their coins are accepted at nearby stores, they make beautiful works of art, use solar power and work for the environment, and there’s an enormous wait list to get in. They’re not in a rush to grow, though they are growing and continuing to grow.

Samuel: what is the difference? How did they succeed where others failed?

me: I don’t know!

That’s why Phil & I are going to take a trip there.

Phil has visited and lived in about 40-100 communes.

Samuel: Is it because they were simply able to get more participants?

me: He’s always visiting or living in one, and he’s really surprised about Damanhur as well.

I don’t think so--

:star: STAR

I think it has to do with their philosophy – excuse me, – spirituality.

I mean, … When you go looking over it, I think you’ll see it.

The say things like,

Samuel: Would you say they are “cult”-like?

me: “If the natural spiritual creativity within each individual is cultivated and cherished and goes into expression, the society will be healthy.”

They are cult-like, but not like we think of usually.

:star: STAR

They’re not encapsulated.

They engage the world around them, and such.

Samuel: So, they are not a cult

me: They don’t say that the world’s going to end;

Samuel: 9t least int he way that i define a “cult”)

me: They say that there’s the threat of environmental collapse, and they’re going to create positive energies that are going to help counterbalance that.

Another label could be “spiritual community.”

When you investigate Damanhur, check out this paper:

:star: STAR
http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/docs00s/horus.php

It’s not high up in Google, but it’s one you particularly would get stuff out of, I think.

Anyways, this is something that I am looking at, and thinking about trying to recreate, in a context more amenable to scientific thinking and so on.

Saturday House has proven to me that societies can be grown and so on.

Samuel: I suspect that the motivation of many damahur participants might be different than the saturday house people, ut I could be wrong

me: No, it’s true;

What I mean is--

I think that people are ready together and do things together.

Samuel: Damanhur really looks more like “church”-type motivations from what I can see

me: I think I can “start a church,” and so on.

Samuel: saturday house is maybe more human-centric

me: I think I know how to do that now, I mean. Yes, it would be different than Saturday House.

Saturday House is different; Much more individualistic centered.

(That said, I suspect Saturday House people would be interested.)

Samuel: But you can grow both networks, they would jst be organized differently, conencted differently. Filled with people with different motivations

me: I’m more interested in making a group of groups.

There’s a few ways I see of going forwards.

:star: STAR

Samuel: yeah, that group of groups is something I am working towards, too

me: I am considering trying to see if I can grow things such that the different groups in Seattle use the same place.

So, an immediate first step would be:

To invite all the Seattle geek groups to use our space, whenever they have trouble finding one.

And then I’m thinking about visiting the Seattle Sustainability community in Ballard, which is huge, (probably already a thousand, many thousand people,) and pitching “Saturday House for Ballard,” and I think that would succeed and go far, and really connect their communities more viscerally, which are already somewhat connected;

I mean, we have people just– They go home, and “sustainability, sustainability, sustainability,” that’s all they think about.

So if they had a regular space with lots of other likemindeds, I think they could really put that to use.

They just need the idea of it, I think.

Samuel: it’s a good idea

I think it will work

:star: STAR

One of the things I think I realized, also, is that “whuffie” and “community currency” are rally meant for these group-to-group netoworks, and you may be able to apply those to help solidify trust

me: (buuuut, my other idea, is to make a Seattle-Local, Internet/Noosphere focused Damanhur… Rather than building underground temples, building software, MetaphysicalCode, for communications…)

Samuel: among groups

me: Oh!

I LOVED the line of thought of--

“Money is about how far people are from you.”

YEAH!

Inter-group currency!

That would follow, naturally, from the theory.

Perhaps dollars themed to the group that you come from, that are more based on flavors, or something;

“Tech-community dollars” redeemable for tech-support, …

Syndicalist Money. [smile]

Samuel: inter-group currency, and inter-group “whuffie” a kind of “thanking” system, that lets peopel know who they can trust (combines thanking with reputation)

me: Yeeeeeeesssss…

:star: STAR

Samuel: this guy has sime insights http://regenerosity.org

me: I’ve seen that URL before… checking…

How are those used outside the community?

I don’t get how this connects with that.

Sent at 2:29 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: my little theory is that these systems can be used as a way for group-to-group “exchanges”, gifts, etc

Sent at 2:30 PM on Tuesday

me: Does Regenerosity explain that concept, or is that your addition?

I like the group-group currency concept.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

Samuel: it is my addition

me: [wink]

You need to write that up.

Samuel: i should have explained that

me: Let’s see… a framing question…

“How do groups trade with one another?”

“How do communities trade with one another?”

:star: STAR

Samuel: “how do groups learn to trust one another?”

me: Then the internal “who honors this” question, is answered through --

AHHhhh…

Yeeeeees.

“How do groups learn to trust one another?”

Samuel: I like all questions

trade and trust

Plus

me: InterCommunityCooperation

Samuel: “How do grous learn to communicate with each other?” (like, how do they reconcile their “link languages”?)

me: I don’t know that they do!

I have a hard enough time communicating with Helmut Leitner, as it is!

Samuel: Ok, lets make that page InterCommunityCooperation

me: http://communitywiki.org/en/InterCommunityCooperation

It’s an olde page.

Samuel: err, ok

[smile]

I think that “trade” is one easy way to start group-to-group ball rolling not all groups live for ever, and most change over time

me: I think it is our destiny and fate to learn how to connect groups.

I agree w/ you, re: the Trade.

Samuel: maybe there are other ways to ‘bootstrap” but trade is one fo the first that comes to mind…

me: In the page you write, let’s keep that question in the hand-

“How to get groups trusting one another?”

:star: STAR

Alex asks, “What’s the benefit?”

“Why would I want to interact with people in another group?”

Alex is the necessary pessimist.

I don’t remember where and how it was asked, but it was.

One of the ways --

Samuel: I answer “Only you can answer that question…” [smile]

me: Robert Steele contacted us all, and said, I’m going to publish a book. Be in it!

So the invitation and the book were critical techniques.

Samuel: yeah, projects!

me: Leadership, too.

Initiative and so on.

Framing the thing.

Samuel: Alex is right, thinking about “what’s in it for me” will pull in people, when doing it

me: <nod>

Samuel: but group to group is different than individual motivations

it may be limited

me: <nod>

Samuel: but powerful never the less in it’s areas of application

me: It also helps if the group has a body.

nod

For example, “who honors the groups currency?”

Samuel: “body”?

me: Is it Lion?

Sam?

By body I mean: “formal members, formal communications channel, formal decision making”

By formal I don’t mean…

I mean, that there’s “one place”

Samuel: yeah, makes sense

me: so that you can ask the group a question, and such.

We’re “semi-connected” online.

Samuel: like CommunityWikiConstitution

me: But I think we can still do this;

“If someone comes around asking for a return on this debt, could you cover it for me?”

“I’ll pay you back.”

So within the community, it’s thanks-based favor-based;

Samuel: I see

me: Between communities, there are inter-community IOUs?

shrug

I don’t know what you’re envisioning specifically, but I like the general approach.

I’d be interested in seeing and trying out approaches.

Samuel: there is an opening for an infrastrucutre that lets communities co-govern this or, co-back it

Sent at 2:43 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: the infrastructure could be an “open standard” kind of thing, supplemented by technology, but based in mutual trust, and only employed when needed beyond each group.

me: I’d be into that, but--

I have difficulty getting groups to even think of themselves as groups..!

Samuel: ripple pay is kind of touching on the idea

me: <nod>

Samuel: ripple pay is actually a great model, because it lets groups be more liquid

me: <nod>

Samuel: it works more in networks. but formal “groups” could be the fall back

me: Well, imagine if I was in Saturday House.

I’m a geek.

Samuel: this is kind of like the religious health insurance deal

me: I go to the group that does sustainability, and I buy my groceries from them.

I give them a geek IOU.

They call Saturday House with a question, someone answers.

Offers tech support.

Part of the grocery bill I racked up is paid off.

That person says to me, “I just paid half your groceries.”

I say, “thanks!”

I owe that person, on an internal to the group informal basis.

Not sure it requires group formality, it does require that the group goes, “We answer tech support calls in return for IOUs racked up by our members.”

Samuel: maybe you would just have to be a member of recognized to get “in” to the system?

me: ?

Samuel: If the system is extended beyond satruday house group

let me give you an eample

from the real world

me: ok [smile]

:star: STAR

Samuel: there is a religious health cost donation system that exists right now all over the use US

me: yes

Samuel: to get “in” to this system, you have to be partof a recognized church

me: ah…

Samuel: once you are “in” then members of the system simply mail their check to wherever the money is needed, in this case, based on a newsletter

in the case of what we are talking about

Sent at 2:51 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: perhaps many groups could decide to be the “backers” of IOU’s, and this would allow an ecology of IOU’s, or community currency, or even pooling of actual currency, among groups that decidet o trust each other

me: yep

yep yep yep

Dana and her army of artists

Sent at 2:53 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: maybe it would een be possible to just make a “merging” or meta currency, that equalizes value from group to group?

but first, the groups have to actually decide to cooperate

me: <nod>

In fact--

You know, I just realized;

This was how the Seattle groups did it in the 70s/80s!

Samuel: I recommend that there can be multiple ways to cooperate: gifts, bartering, pooling resources, etc

me: It was store-to-store, rather than all individual based.

Samuel: or even outright buying. really that is how they did it in Seattle? I think that tehe ideas are more popular during hardere economic times (like the 70’s 80’s and now… [smile]

:star: STAR

me: http://seattle.wikia.com/wiki/Community_currency

I didn’t realize it at the time, but it makes sense now--

That was a group-to-group currency.

Samuel: we are the lowest economy in the nation here in Michigan, and people are really interested in these ideas here, even ifthey don’t know how to realize them

US currency is a group to group currecny on international level

me: “But I know barter was reliably in place all over Seattle by 1978, and died out in approximately 1985. Some key players in the Seattle alternative/underground culture were involved in this experiment, as were some of Seattle’s most historic and beloved venues, including the Blue Moon, the Fabulous Rainbow, the Neptune Theater, Cellophane Square, Cause Celebre, Left Bank Books, and more.”

Those names don’t mean anything to you, but I see all those places day-to-day.

Samuel: cool..

lots of sub culture stores

“sub” not meaning lesser than, but “hidden from mainstream” maybe

me: “But what about records, beer, movies, ice cream and cool leftist buttons and posters? For those necessities, we had pizza barter slips. We could always trade pizza for beer at the Blue Moon, as well as homemade ice cream in the summers, from Cause Celebre.”

Lots of stories of trades there.

So, I think this group->group idea is right.

:star: STAR

But, I think there’s something else that we need, something else that we need to figure out.

I don’t know what it is.

But the “group-to-group” seems to me to be a level-up.

Samuel: the thing that I think makes these die off is that th epeople who trusted each other drifted off or faded out of the systems, and ther ewas nothing there to help newcomers get that good, warm secure feeling

a feeling of belonging to something that is working, and solving problems

me: Interesting!

Samuel: that is what is needed

me: Yes.

Samuel: These system crest and die,

me: They are “not sustainable.”

We need a sustainability.

Samuel: because no one ever addresses the sustainability

me: Um, …

Well, I have some timid concepts of how to do it.

Samuel: ok

me: Evolutionary Spirituality. (ulp!)

Maybe not the best response.

Samuel: that will resonate with some for sure

me: <nod>

:star: STAR

I guess that– when it gets down to it,

people have to have a sense that they’re doing something with others.

Samuel: also, there may be some messages within that, that will resonae further

me: Or participating in something with others.

Samuel: err, yeah you are right

[smile]

me: Omega Point.

Think of Open Source.

There’s the vision of Free Software inside.

At the risk of being ‘ligious,

The Omega Point does seem to be the End Point.

The Omega Point is Teilhard’s idea, that at the natural end of the concept of love, the natural end point, of carrying that “idea” forwards, is Universal Love.

Which he called the “omega point,” and he said stuff like: “Christ is realized in the Omega Point,” and by “realized,” he meant, “made real.”

Sent at 3:06 PM on Tuesday

me: I think there are progressions of doing-with-others before the Omega point, though, by Teilhards conception.

:star: STAR

Samuel: what Graves called “the Never Ending Quest” for humans, who, just when they think hey have come close to that “point” realize there is a whole new level of complexity in the universe they never knew before, with a whole new “point” to work towards

me: (nod)

That sounds right to me. I like criticism of finality.

I just bought 4 Teilhards to study;

Samuel: I think we are onto something here

me: <nod>

We seriously need to write this up.

Samuel: maybe we can copy this to CW for now?

me: We’ve talked about several jewels here in this conversation.

Yes, sure. Do you mind if I include the Korten?

Samuel: hmm…maybe not. If that is ok

nornally I wouldn’t mind, but someting tells me to could be a bad idea…

me: OK; But personally speaking, it’s exactly what I’d say to him in front of him, or say to someone else in front of him.

Honestly, I’d be amazed if he heard about it.

In fact, I’d be ecstatic.

I will honor your request, but really-

Samuel: ok, include it then [smile]

 me: I've been standing right in front of him, trying to communicate something, and he's just, "Nope nope nope, none of that, next on the agenda."

ok [smile]

Samuel: I don’t really care, it’s cool

me: ok [smile]

Samuel: please do include the whole thing

me: I will.

It sounds like this meeting is ajourned?

We have a lot to think about, and then write up.

Samuel: yeah, I amsure you have to get back to work

me: yes I do

Samuel: so do I. Will meet you on CW

me: Take care!

[smile]

Samuel: later!

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